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	<title>Comments on: Toilet designed by a fashion designer</title>
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	<link>http://eicolab.com.au/2008/01/17/toilet-designed-by-a-fashion-designer/</link>
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		<title>By: Design can take a moral position</title>
		<link>http://eicolab.com.au/2008/01/17/toilet-designed-by-a-fashion-designer/comment-page-1/#comment-178390</link>
		<dc:creator>Design can take a moral position</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Mar 2010 23:31:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://eicolab.com.au/?p=85#comment-178390</guid>
		<description>[...] Which tied in nicely with the recent comments on one of my older blog posts Toilet designed by a fashion designer. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Which tied in nicely with the recent comments on one of my older blog posts Toilet designed by a fashion designer. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Zern</title>
		<link>http://eicolab.com.au/2008/01/17/toilet-designed-by-a-fashion-designer/comment-page-1/#comment-175548</link>
		<dc:creator>Zern</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Feb 2010 09:32:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://eicolab.com.au/?p=85#comment-175548</guid>
		<description>I would have thought copywriting is a form of design. The process of understanding the client&#039;s needs, the audience, the medium, and then constructing a solution appropriate to all these constraints...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would have thought copywriting is a form of design. The process of understanding the client&#8217;s needs, the audience, the medium, and then constructing a solution appropriate to all these constraints&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Natasha</title>
		<link>http://eicolab.com.au/2008/01/17/toilet-designed-by-a-fashion-designer/comment-page-1/#comment-175545</link>
		<dc:creator>Natasha</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Feb 2010 08:28:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://eicolab.com.au/?p=85#comment-175545</guid>
		<description>Interesting to see how much power the words &#039;design&#039; and &#039;designer&#039; have. I think that perhaps the words have no power at all, but the meanings inferred and implied do. I think that perhaps our urgency to fix the definition, to condemn another&#039;s interpretation reflect the urgency we feel to be understood and not to be limited in ways that make little sense to us.

Helps me think about why I hate being called a copywriter - when I trade words for money, which is pretty much the definition of one! I&#039;ve been using  the term &#039;copywriting with bells on&#039; recently. I&#039;m bothered about the definition of copywriting leaving out the element of design - of planning and thinking, crafting and elegantly solving a problem. 

So I&#039;ll call myself a &#039;designer&#039; too, we can&#039;t share our definition of what this means but we can be connected through our understanding of what it feels like to seek self autonomy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting to see how much power the words &#8216;design&#8217; and &#8216;designer&#8217; have. I think that perhaps the words have no power at all, but the meanings inferred and implied do. I think that perhaps our urgency to fix the definition, to condemn another&#8217;s interpretation reflect the urgency we feel to be understood and not to be limited in ways that make little sense to us.</p>
<p>Helps me think about why I hate being called a copywriter &#8211; when I trade words for money, which is pretty much the definition of one! I&#8217;ve been using  the term &#8216;copywriting with bells on&#8217; recently. I&#8217;m bothered about the definition of copywriting leaving out the element of design &#8211; of planning and thinking, crafting and elegantly solving a problem. </p>
<p>So I&#8217;ll call myself a &#8216;designer&#8217; too, we can&#8217;t share our definition of what this means but we can be connected through our understanding of what it feels like to seek self autonomy.</p>
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		<title>By: Zern</title>
		<link>http://eicolab.com.au/2008/01/17/toilet-designed-by-a-fashion-designer/comment-page-1/#comment-175542</link>
		<dc:creator>Zern</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Feb 2010 07:55:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://eicolab.com.au/?p=85#comment-175542</guid>
		<description>@American Fashion Designer: Thank you for your comment. You have raised several interesting thought-provoking points.

I love fantasy; exciting conceptual stuff that is not based on reality - for their ability to generate excitement and wonder. That&#039;s why I enjoy movies like Avatar, go to the theatre, and visit contemporary art shows. For the same reason, as you have pointed out, I enjoy looking at concept cars, show houses, concept laptops, and concept furniture. 

The thing that I will point out is this: concept cars, laptops and furniture all still universally conform to the realities of the average human body. This is an immutable fact, a necessary constraint of the design profession. 

Doing otherwise will make these art pieces, not design. Art is great, it frees the creators from the constraints of usability, ergonomics, mass manufacturability and indeed ethical concerns. Perhaps that is the basis of the discussion here - fashion “design” as it is portrayed on mass media is actually art, not design! Because it is based on fantasy.

A concept car designed for 6-limbed aliens would be a piece of art.

I disagree with your comment that if we remove the fantasy element, we will kill the industry. None of the other design professions out there pass off fantasy as reality like the fashion industry does. The architecture profession certainly does not base their marketing primarily on mass media-fuelled shows of concept houses designed for headless people, or Jovian atmospheric gasbags. 

I am entering my 18th year as a design professional so I think I know something about product development – including user needs analysis, ergonomics, user psychology, usability, ethical production, sustainable design, and yes – fun and delight and beauty and joy.

I know there are many MANY talented real fashion designers who actually design. Is it hard for you guys in an industry where the fluffy unreal conceptual stuff seem to overshadow everything else?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@American Fashion Designer: Thank you for your comment. You have raised several interesting thought-provoking points.</p>
<p>I love fantasy; exciting conceptual stuff that is not based on reality &#8211; for their ability to generate excitement and wonder. That&#8217;s why I enjoy movies like Avatar, go to the theatre, and visit contemporary art shows. For the same reason, as you have pointed out, I enjoy looking at concept cars, show houses, concept laptops, and concept furniture. </p>
<p>The thing that I will point out is this: concept cars, laptops and furniture all still universally conform to the realities of the average human body. This is an immutable fact, a necessary constraint of the design profession. </p>
<p>Doing otherwise will make these art pieces, not design. Art is great, it frees the creators from the constraints of usability, ergonomics, mass manufacturability and indeed ethical concerns. Perhaps that is the basis of the discussion here &#8211; fashion “design” as it is portrayed on mass media is actually art, not design! Because it is based on fantasy.</p>
<p>A concept car designed for 6-limbed aliens would be a piece of art.</p>
<p>I disagree with your comment that if we remove the fantasy element, we will kill the industry. None of the other design professions out there pass off fantasy as reality like the fashion industry does. The architecture profession certainly does not base their marketing primarily on mass media-fuelled shows of concept houses designed for headless people, or Jovian atmospheric gasbags. </p>
<p>I am entering my 18th year as a design professional so I think I know something about product development – including user needs analysis, ergonomics, user psychology, usability, ethical production, sustainable design, and yes – fun and delight and beauty and joy.</p>
<p>I know there are many MANY talented real fashion designers who actually design. Is it hard for you guys in an industry where the fluffy unreal conceptual stuff seem to overshadow everything else?</p>
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		<title>By: American Fashion Designer</title>
		<link>http://eicolab.com.au/2008/01/17/toilet-designed-by-a-fashion-designer/comment-page-1/#comment-173185</link>
		<dc:creator>American Fashion Designer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Feb 2010 10:36:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://eicolab.com.au/?p=85#comment-173185</guid>
		<description>Unfortunately, your shortsighted and narrow criticism is with a partial and bias view tarnished with mockery, for the true reality in fashion design is unreality (fantasy), a necessary evil, because on the catwalk (showroom) it is still a &quot;fashion concept&quot; that requires at this presentational state &quot;theater&quot; and the pushing of the design envelop to generate the essential enthusiasm and visual excitement required to persuade buyers to purchase the pieces for distribution, outlets and the marketplace, way before the public ever sees the ultimate refined product subsequently adapted from the catwalk for average human bodies and for MASS PRODUCTION.  If the element of the unreal and fantasy were entirely suppressed in an effort to design for average people and average models wearing the average fashions, then the created pieces would appear extremely mundane and mediocre on the catwalk and gross disinterest would prevail from the buyers.  Just like in the automotive industry, the &quot;concept cars&quot; (in the presentational showroom) serve to generate buyer and consumer enthusiasm but are never actually sold, bought and used by the general public; instead, they are adapted later into a final product that can be MASS PRODUCED and cost reduced for the average consumer.  You really should become more abreast and familiar of the processes involved from design to marketing, instead of getting caught up in PC reaction and criticism based on what uninformed outsider to the design industries extol.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Unfortunately, your shortsighted and narrow criticism is with a partial and bias view tarnished with mockery, for the true reality in fashion design is unreality (fantasy), a necessary evil, because on the catwalk (showroom) it is still a &#8220;fashion concept&#8221; that requires at this presentational state &#8220;theater&#8221; and the pushing of the design envelop to generate the essential enthusiasm and visual excitement required to persuade buyers to purchase the pieces for distribution, outlets and the marketplace, way before the public ever sees the ultimate refined product subsequently adapted from the catwalk for average human bodies and for MASS PRODUCTION.  If the element of the unreal and fantasy were entirely suppressed in an effort to design for average people and average models wearing the average fashions, then the created pieces would appear extremely mundane and mediocre on the catwalk and gross disinterest would prevail from the buyers.  Just like in the automotive industry, the &#8220;concept cars&#8221; (in the presentational showroom) serve to generate buyer and consumer enthusiasm but are never actually sold, bought and used by the general public; instead, they are adapted later into a final product that can be MASS PRODUCED and cost reduced for the average consumer.  You really should become more abreast and familiar of the processes involved from design to marketing, instead of getting caught up in PC reaction and criticism based on what uninformed outsider to the design industries extol.</p>
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		<title>By: A fashion industry “revolution”</title>
		<link>http://eicolab.com.au/2008/01/17/toilet-designed-by-a-fashion-designer/comment-page-1/#comment-170685</link>
		<dc:creator>A fashion industry “revolution”</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Feb 2010 23:16:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://eicolab.com.au/?p=85#comment-170685</guid>
		<description>[...] See also my previous post Toilet designed by a fashion designer… [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] See also my previous post Toilet designed by a fashion designer… [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Existential mulling 1 – Blogging</title>
		<link>http://eicolab.com.au/2008/01/17/toilet-designed-by-a-fashion-designer/comment-page-1/#comment-25851</link>
		<dc:creator>Existential mulling 1 – Blogging</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Feb 2009 16:06:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://eicolab.com.au/?p=85#comment-25851</guid>
		<description>[...] thought. They have been consistently enlightening and supportive. An example is my post about how fashion designers work from a basis of fantasy, unlike all other design [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] thought. They have been consistently enlightening and supportive. An example is my post about how fashion designers work from a basis of fantasy, unlike all other design [...]</p>
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		<title>By: kairi</title>
		<link>http://eicolab.com.au/2008/01/17/toilet-designed-by-a-fashion-designer/comment-page-1/#comment-24561</link>
		<dc:creator>kairi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Jan 2009 06:55:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://eicolab.com.au/?p=85#comment-24561</guid>
		<description>oh and one last thing... according to leonardo da vinci&#039;s rule of proportion. an average human is 7 to 8 heads long for a whole body standing upright, in the image supplied it&#039;s around 13 heads long! I counted 8 by the time I got to the knee!! the feet should have been there! that&#039;s just surreal! nobody can say that they can realistically design on that.. it&#039;s no wonder I can never find jeans to fit me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>oh and one last thing&#8230; according to leonardo da vinci&#8217;s rule of proportion. an average human is 7 to 8 heads long for a whole body standing upright, in the image supplied it&#8217;s around 13 heads long! I counted 8 by the time I got to the knee!! the feet should have been there! that&#8217;s just surreal! nobody can say that they can realistically design on that.. it&#8217;s no wonder I can never find jeans to fit me.</p>
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		<title>By: kairi</title>
		<link>http://eicolab.com.au/2008/01/17/toilet-designed-by-a-fashion-designer/comment-page-1/#comment-24558</link>
		<dc:creator>kairi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Jan 2009 06:46:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://eicolab.com.au/?p=85#comment-24558</guid>
		<description>I think this is so true. I hate the fact that fashion designers design in the fantasy world, it makes the more vulnerable believe that&#039;s how we should look and leads to many eating disorders... your opinion is very logical. I&#039;m an artist and I have to conform to the rules of the real world. to draw a figure correctly as nature intended is VITAL. why should fashion designers be any different? are they designers or abstract artists? you&#039;re completely right in saying that the clothes that are designed on those models aren&#039;t made to fit us. because they&#039;re blatantly not. it&#039;s unrealistic. fashion designers should be forced to conform to realistic proportions if they are to design something for real people in the real world. 

and @ bridget... if all designers including *graphics architectural, and product designers* distorted their designs to fit in more detail. nothing would work correctly. your argument makes no sense. If I were a graphics designer, I would be set a format to create for... you HAVE a format to design to, you just choose to ignore it because it is not aesthetically pleasing enough... humans come in all shapes and sizes... the sooner people embrace that fact, the sooner we can all have garments that fit. regardless of whether you&#039;re a trained fashion designer or any other form of designer. you should know the importance of KNOWING your proportions. 
as Zern said &quot;If the drawing is too small to show details, draw a close-up view at a larger scale. Architects and product designers have been doing it for ages. Some inter-disciplinary learning could be useful here.&quot; designing to a fantasy figure will only give you flawed results. take it from a seasoned character designer... someone who knows what humans look like in the real world</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think this is so true. I hate the fact that fashion designers design in the fantasy world, it makes the more vulnerable believe that&#8217;s how we should look and leads to many eating disorders&#8230; your opinion is very logical. I&#8217;m an artist and I have to conform to the rules of the real world. to draw a figure correctly as nature intended is VITAL. why should fashion designers be any different? are they designers or abstract artists? you&#8217;re completely right in saying that the clothes that are designed on those models aren&#8217;t made to fit us. because they&#8217;re blatantly not. it&#8217;s unrealistic. fashion designers should be forced to conform to realistic proportions if they are to design something for real people in the real world. </p>
<p>and @ bridget&#8230; if all designers including *graphics architectural, and product designers* distorted their designs to fit in more detail. nothing would work correctly. your argument makes no sense. If I were a graphics designer, I would be set a format to create for&#8230; you HAVE a format to design to, you just choose to ignore it because it is not aesthetically pleasing enough&#8230; humans come in all shapes and sizes&#8230; the sooner people embrace that fact, the sooner we can all have garments that fit. regardless of whether you&#8217;re a trained fashion designer or any other form of designer. you should know the importance of KNOWING your proportions.<br />
as Zern said &#8220;If the drawing is too small to show details, draw a close-up view at a larger scale. Architects and product designers have been doing it for ages. Some inter-disciplinary learning could be useful here.&#8221; designing to a fantasy figure will only give you flawed results. take it from a seasoned character designer&#8230; someone who knows what humans look like in the real world</p>
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		<title>By: Zern</title>
		<link>http://eicolab.com.au/2008/01/17/toilet-designed-by-a-fashion-designer/comment-page-1/#comment-22514</link>
		<dc:creator>Zern</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Dec 2008 16:22:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://eicolab.com.au/?p=85#comment-22514</guid>
		<description>Awww - thank you Fashion Trends!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Awww &#8211; thank you Fashion Trends!</p>
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